8 Player Vanilla

[[Team] Kilemal]

I've actually put in a few hours in the 8 player games and I must say - I think it is a major improvement over the 16 player game. Also - and I'm not really sure why - but it also seems considerably more difficult than the 16 player game was. I have yet to see a round completed and won with all the bots on the opposing team. The highest I've ever had the ratio is 90% (or 18 bots on team 1 and 2 on team 2). At that setting with 7 players in the game was a tough win. I like that - the best win is a tough win. The rounds also seem to take a lot longer to complete so I'm thinking about lowering the tickets slightly. Most rounds I've seen - as long as the bot ratio isn't set too low - take close to an hour to complete.

As far as I'm concerned, the 16 player game is history. If enough people think it's worthwhile, we can try a 10 player game and see how that works out, but other than the fact that it's a lot more work running 2 eight player games than it was 1 sixteen player game, I think it's worth it.

[1-8th_Fury]

Perhaps the difference is in stealing the enemies equipment?

[[Team] Traz]

I have not had that experience Kil. Some maps are easier than others and in all are not as difficult as the 16 person maps were with few players. The ones that seem to have some difficulty to then are ones with a lot of armor but I think more to the point the individuals get into the game after the bots have taken off with everything and the enemy bots are rolling in and you find yourself fighting to save the only flag you have. Are you modifying the maps for yourself and making it more difficult than at other times?

[[Team] Kilemal]

Jenifearia;8195']

I'm getting kind of board in the game because there isn't enough to do.



This coming from one of the three people who has the ability to change the difficulty of the game I find a little disturbing. The only real difference in the difficulty of the games is where the bot ratio is set. You playing by yourself with the ratio on 75% may very well be too easy, while me playing with six noobs and the ratio on 90% was in fact fairly difficult. If the game is too easy make it harder.

Last night I checked the vanilla games frequently and both were fairly full all night - 6 or 7 players most of the time - with the bot ratio on 85%. Pretty quickly I noticed one of the games was completely empty so I logged onto the CC and saw that you had bumped the ratio up to 100% and cleared out the game in a matter of 10 minutes because it was just too hard for them. It has a lot to do with the players in the game and I would rather see the game too hard than too easy, and I understand that the ratios are different with 20 bots than they were with 32.

It's going to be more work as I said, but I'll get some more people involved as full admins on those two games and we'll get it under control.

[[Team] Kilemal]

You two: Traz and Jen that is, have well over 2000 hours played here, you're two of the highest scoring, and highest ranking players ever to play here. I think when either of you are in the game then definitely the ratio needs to be considerably higher than if even 3 or 4 noobs are playing in your place. Stating that the game is too easy when it's set well below its maximum difficulty is just not really a relative arguement.

I still have yet to see a round completed and won with the bot ratio on 100% and 8 players in the game. Everytime the bot ratio has been set to 100% everyone leaves the game. The only reason yet that I've seen the game empty out in one round has been because it's too hard for the players to win so they get discouraged and leave.

[Super-Medic-Ace]

I could go for some bigger challenges, but perhaps these adjustments could be made only if there are multiple humans in that specific server. As was pointed out before, winning a round against bots with the AI at 100% (and no bots on your side) is very difficult without careful coordination and experienced BF2 players who play as a team.

[[Team] Traz]

Sounds like moving it to 100% is too much for any of us. Maybe around 85-90% as a standard for the maps? I have no idea at this point what the games are set too when I play but we are hoping to change this. I'm just stating my experiences as they have happened.

[sniper_squirrelx]

can you bump up the number of bots??

just a thought

[[Team] Kilemal]

The 100% ratio estimate was based upon my experience with the 16 player game. Anymore than 10 players in that game and the ratio needed to be on 100% or it just wasn't any fun at all. The smaller game is entirely different however and until we figure it out there is no "correct" ratio. There are just too many variables involved.


And now we have people asking for more bots in the game when no one seems able to win against the number we already have . . . . .
This is just making no sense to me.

[[Team] Traz]

Can we try and do tests with regulars on one map and the newer players or a mix on the other?

[Super-Medic-Ace]

I don't know about you, but there are few games I have lost with other experienced players - especially the regulars. I personally have an 85% win ratio with 440+ games on TEAM servers, and others have higher ratios... Most of those losses are from map votes as soon as the game starts (we almost always lose the round that way). I like the suggestions that have been mentioned - especially Traz's suggestion just before this post (doing tests with regulars).

[fe7felix]

i too think it would be a nice rule not to steal enmy chopper tnks etc in vanilla.
give some more use at the igla and sttionary antitank things.. more tactic and some defens strategies. i personally like to rush but this way we would force teamwork still a lil more i thunk
thats less points (for some and more for many) & flying (i love flying), but when i want to fly, i go aix or custom..

[MisterPWN]

I agree with your first post Kilemal. Depending on the players and ratio the new vanilla can be much harder, or relatively easy. The first time I hopped into one of the servers it seemed much harder, the mechanics of the game are very different from the 16 player vanilla. Also the rounds do tend to last a bit longer, even with a large team and the game going in our favor, they still last around a half hour.

The idea of a 10 player vanilla could be a happy medium between 8 and 16, but the issues with the ratio should probably be looked into with what we have now. Thanks for all your work on this

[[Team] Jenifearia]

PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND THERE IS NO NEED TO ADD

So I need to Apologize to Steve as well to all of those who have posted here in response to my post. This was an informative forum thread from steve to everyone that I addressed my personal thoughts in an inappropriate manner. as one of your leaders I should have addressed any concerns I had directly to steve in a PM. Steve puts a lot of time and energy into the games here and I appreciate all that he does. He continues to try to improve upon our servers to make this place an even more enjoyable place to play.
Due to the fact that all of us have different preferences and styles of play it is impossible to please everyone but whatever is done you can be sure that it is in the best interest of the people that play here. I hope that this clears things up:) AGAIN NO NEED TO ADD ANYTHING FURTHER:)

Sorry again and thanks for listening

[[Team] Mytrap]

first off dont get on the subject of any % here on this form. that is an admin only form or on ventrillo between admins only.
I will say this though If your an admin and you think the map is to easy look at who is in there with you, and if its just you then its your fault it is to easy.
Why is it your fault, because you were given the power to change the diffaculty Lv. Just remember when we get the noobs or first timers to our servers they come to us unprepaired. Or as some of you put it They get Schooled because our server is tougher then all the others. What we call easy
maps will be hard for them. I remember all of you comming to the Team-Nitro server playing a few maps and then saying man these bots are hard and in the same breath say how much fun you had. So Bf2cc admins if your not having fun then its your fault change settings while your in there so you do have fun. You have more experance and Team skills playing here now then the new people. They come to us to have fun and I know Team-Nitro does just that.

This thread if continued(for admins) need to be on admins only thread

[sniper_squirrelx]

Team Nitro is the best server going, bar none!

thanks to all for their hard work in making that happen, maybe I tend to forget it takes that to keep this fun going.

Trap hit it, alot of fun to be had here...thanks again to all of you for that!! fun places are at a premium these days, need to remind myself of that on occasion.

ss

[[Team] Kilemal]

The bot ratio is a relevent discussion point, however I don't think it's something the average player needs to concern themself with. The fact that our ratio gets changed at all makes our games 100% better than anyone elses because all the other popular co-op servers I know of just set the ratio on 80 or 85 percent and leave it there all the time, regardless of how many players are in the game.


A couple points I probably hadn't considered with the smaller games:
They will require more attention than the one larger game. This could be the killer of the smaller games.
Experienced players will have a greater impact on the difficulty of the game simply because it is half the size of what we are used to.
But - these are things that can be worked out I believe. I actually enjoyed spending a few hours in the vanilla game this past weekend. That hasn't happened in a long time . . . . .

[[Team] Kilemal]

I stand corrected . . . now I've seen it. 20 vs 8 and the US team won a very well deserved victory . . . . VERY well deserved !

I blacked out the names because who the players were doesn't really matter - except for that guy with 8 teamkills - I need to have a chat with him. You can see by their ranks however they are not a bunch of noobs but moderately experienced players, and this round was a fight to the finish. That's what I'm talking about here ! I've never been one to appreciate an easy win and those of you who stick around here I know don't either. This was the best round I've seen played in the vanilla game in months - I wish I was in there instead of watching.

If that was the old 16 player game at 32 vs 14 - the final score would have been 450 to 0 - or 475 to 0. It always was - if anyone doubts that I have months and months of logs to back that up.

Again - I think the smaller games will require more attention on the part of the top level admins but if we can pull that part off this will be a great game again.

[Teeeman2]

i have been playing these games quite a bit recently and noticed 1 major bad thing: it is always full of noobs who take up the space useful players could and we end up losing with 8 humans. i played 2 rounds in a row where this happened. just my opinion (and a few others) that the 16 player was better. there was just room for noobs AND useful players.

[Super-Medic-Ace]

I used to be one of those newbs ;-)
Took me some getting used to (1 week of playing 30+ hours) before I would stop getting owned by the bots and started utilizing teamwork. Maybe it will just take some time for these other newcomers to realize the same thing. Chances are, if they come back, they will at least be improving. :-) I hope you have better luck next time Teeman. You're unstoppable in that Battlehawk!

[Teeeman2]

thanks. though mostly what im complaining about is these who get in dont know what to do then gripe when they die AND hog vehicles to do useless things. i.e: f1iref7ghter (think i spelled it right) kept hogging the chopper in dalian plant even though we only had reactors and flew around randomly and complained nonstop. THAT is my definition of a noob. not someone who just is new and TRYING to learn.

[=Vu=PatchAdams]

Yes, there are a few players who frequent mainly the Vanilla servers who may or may not be noobs in the sense of inexperience. But mostly they don't command (unless they foolishly think it's a way to double combat points), join or lead squads, heal/revive, get on vent, spot hostiles, or show any signs of learning to share vehicles, defend flags, etc. They are the kind who will punish you for a tk for your AT mine that also took out a full enemy Vodnik that was about to cap the last friendly flag. Some are probably just not that good, but others are interested only in getting lots of kills, not in teamwork or winning. If you get 3 or 4 like this on an 8 player server (which is actually 7 for many people because of the reserved slot) it is a lot worse than 4 or even 6-7 like this on a 16 player server.

[akman1955]

How come i can't see any of these games all of a sudden on bf-2 site?? only get one coop game with same settings? john

[Bloo Iggy]

Here is my 2 pence if anyone cares...

If we have a shorted crew team versing a high ratio of bots, my opinion is just to boost the tik counter up 300 or so. In that prospect I feel that the 300 or so extra tickets takes place of the 8 other people that would be playing in the 16 player game. And on a plus note it gives other players extra "lives" to play. By extending the "life" of the player it would not really matter the difficulty of the bots.

I believe normally we play on a 300-300 sometimes up to 700-700 (Iwo) If given an additional 300 tiks would extend the game giving us a fairer chance of winning. Please take into account of the people coming and going mid game, sometimes causing the tik ratio to sway a couple hundreds of points.

So. My point is difficulty and bot ratio is not really the key. An 8 player game can easily be won if you have "extended lives".
Anyone catch my drift?

[Teeeman2]

actually, what i was talking about is 3+ rounds of being COMPLETELY capped out with 8 humans.

[1-8th_Fury]

Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've been on the vanilla servers at least a few hours since they were changed to 8 player, and I've had some good fights and fun times.

When I find myself with nothing but noobs, I usually make a squad and try to fill it with noobs, and try to get them to spawn on me. When I first started playing TEAM servers, being invited to a squad made a world of difference to me in how I approached the game. Maybe it's contagous - let's make some TEAM players out of those noobs. We sure won't get them all, but we can get some :)

[[Team] Jenifearia]

good advice Fury:)

[Teeeman2]

i tried that. they would either join and not spawn, or refuse to join. maybe i just get in at all the wrong times?

[Tea&Medals]

i dont squad up sometimes,i dont like being given orders every 2 seconds,go here,no there,back here,attack,defend.........you can usually see where your needed,ordering people about willy-nilly tends to piss them off and can spoil the game a bit,but on the whole i like the 8 player set up
p.s. Is EA trying to kill off the BF2 servers with the log out problems we're experiencing? or is it just a glich......time will tell i suppose

[Teeeman2]

i hope its just a glitch

[akman1955]

Yes i hope they fix glich. a pain too keep logging on. Also teaman/fury..i totally agree. thanks,john

[1-8th_Fury]

i dont squad up sometimes,i dont like being given orders every 2 seconds,go here,no there,back here,attack,defend

When the commander AND squad leader are both bots, you can get different orders every 2 seconds. But when either of those positions are held by humans, it is unlikely that frequent shifts of objecitves will be given to squad members. I will often leave a squad whose human squad leader mindlessly forwards every order from a bot commander.

Not being a member of a squad makes it much harder for your TEAM mates to find you. Also a lone wolf player cannot spawn on their squad leader - something that can easily make the difference between winning and losing a map.

[Teeeman2]

very true

[Lamron333]

When the commander AND squad leader are both bots, you can get different orders every 2 seconds. But when either of those positions are held by humans, it is unlikely that frequent shifts of objecitves will be given to squad members. I will often leave a squad whose human squad leader mindlessly forwards every order from a bot commander.

Not being a member of a squad makes it much harder for your TEAM mates to find you. Also a lone wolf player cannot spawn on their squad leader - something that can easily make the difference between winning and losing a map.

I agree 100% & everybody who has been in my squad can tell you I find the BEST areas to spawn my squad on ;)

[RAR_Dingo]

All I've noticed Re. 8pl/16pl game is it seems to take the bots longer to kill vehicles, & there are no more waves of bots comin at ya. The infantry maps are just as much fun (for me), even more if you have few players. Can't hold Jalalabad map by myself + bots, but Karkand & Great Wall are doable.